So why all the Chuck Austen xmen run Hate...?

[darkthief]

I mean, it was not THAT bad....really for me it had good momments too like juggernaut in the team, the squid boy character, his violent death, the impact on Juggy, angel back to "white" skin, havock back on the team, and i really loved some specific issues of his run like the one when Caine tells charles how sorry he was for being an ____ to him all this years....the Kurt and Mystique issue (i know it had some continuity errors but it was overrall a good tale) Plus we had Larroca, Garney and Sean Philips as artist....very talented people...and i know most people hate what he did to Lorna but the character was stale...it needed a shake up....at the end it worked for her....

The one thing i find it very odd was the hole new brotherhood thing....sabretooth being played for stupid....and Exodus...like a ____ amateur....

Id give his run a 6 from 10 points....but if u ask me what is the worst xmen run ever, for me it was Peter Milligans stuff...he started ok but at some point it just got really messy...

[MarkParnell]

Overall I agree with your assessment there were indeed some special issues that tugged at the heart but having Warren date Paige and the whole arc with Nightcrawler was just awful and I guess that trumps the good issues that he produced. Milligans run was disappointing. I often wonder how great writers have such an awful time when it comes to running the X-Men. I have a feeling that the line is over editorilized.

[Perephal]

I enjoyed Austen's run when I first read it, maybe I wouldn't now based on all the stuff I forgot. Anyways Austen's run was miles above Milligan's which actually tops the list of my worst read comic books ever.

[Scelestus]

I liked Austen's run. Sure there were some things that were kind of rank, like Nightcrawler's "origin" and the mutant wolf storyline, but overall I think the positives outweigh the negatives. I loved his characterization of Caine/Juggernaut. For some reason that really worked for me- how many times can you be a defeated villain without stopping and considering maybe you've been on the wrong side? I loved Caine's relationship with Sammy. When Caine when to Canada and kicked the crap out of Sammy's abusive dad? Yeah, that was all kinds of awesome.

[darkthief]

Overall I agree with your assessment there were indeed some special issues that tugged at the heart but having Warren date Paige and the whole arc with Nightcrawler was just awful and I guess that trumps the good issues that he produced. Milligans run was disappointing. I often wonder how great writers have such an awful time when it comes to running the X-Men. I have a feeling that the line is over editorilized.

But we are having the same thing in Xfactor now, correct that, we have a worse scenario with Jamie and Lyla relationship, because he knew her as a child! and now she is just 19....when Paige was around 21....see? Why nobody is complaiying with these? And i really LOVE xfactor.....i just had to make a fair point.
And yes, Cain was for me the best point in all his run, i guess we had a chance to see into the mind and heart of a villian...and discovered that after all he was just a human....and after that i loved Claremonts continuation of Cain in Excalibur when Black Tom shows up, Cain tells to him that he crossed the line having killed a kid....and Black tom was so ashamed.

[SouthtownKid]

I also enjoyed a lot of Austen's run, particularly the issue with the exploding kid.

There were some bad issues as well, but not nearly as bad or as many as the lemming bandwagon made it sound like as they ran Austen out of Marvel.

Then DC fans did the same thing, despite Austen writing a good Superman arc (that actually dared to do things with the characters) and a 12-issue Jimmy Olsen mini that possibly stands as the greatest Jimmy Olsen story ever told.

I really hate it when fans dogpile on a creator, and when you read the complaint threads, they read like half the people are only repeating things they've read other people say because it's the cool thing to do at the moment. Meanwhile, they've put someone out of work.

[Perephal]

Chuck Austen did end up doing something really wierd after all of this though. I can't remember all the details but it involved him writing phoney letters to his own comic book.

[NewMutant]

Austen first arc, Hope, was decent. And then his last stories got better because of Larocca's art (why did he get pulled from X-Treme for this!).

He had some interesting ideas, like most writers, but poor execution.

I personally don't think Juggernut ever should have been made a hero. It felt like he was added just because Colossus was gone and Emma was successful as the villian turned hero.

Holy War seemed like an interesting idea, but it turned out to be awlful. It was unreadable. He brought Jubilee back and did nothing with her.

The Draco is bad fan fiction.

She Lies with the Angels only positive thing was Larocca art. I mean Angel and Husk have sex infront of her mothers, siblings, and the other X-Men. Angel is pedophile. NASTY.

Not to mention... Angel's blood heals people is nasty. And is usually forgotten. Which leads to the shocking discovery... mutants can't get aids! WHAT?!?!?

Lets not forget he made Black Tom a TREE and created Mammonx or however its spelled.

He got stuck having to retcon Xorn, which sucked.

His Brotherhood arc was good, but he had an entire Wolverine/Sabbretooth fight off panel where apparerntly Wolverine killed him by chopping him to bits.

I enjoyed his Northstar on the team but even he was underused.

[DarthBubba]

The fact that this thread exists makes me again realize how far we've gone away from the old 'Rama once again. Austen's run is the absolute worst in all of X-men history (IMO of course) and I'm including ALL of the other x-books, minis and so on that I've read. I may be a bit biased, the first thread I ever created on the old'Rama was titled "Chuck Austen Must Never Write Another Comic" or something like that.

[PUCK]

THE GOOD:

1) SAMMY THE SQUIDBOY IS THE SECOND GREATEST CHARACTER OF THE 2000'S ANC THEFIRST WAS DINO-RACHEL BUT SHE WAS BASED ON A PRE-EXISTING CHARACTER SO PROBABLY DOESNT COUNT

2) REDMEPTIONS OF THE JUGGERNAUT

3) HAVOK RETURSN TO 616 AND PROCEEDS TO BANG THAT MILDLY NECROPHILIC SLUTTYNURSE

4) NORTHSTAR JOINS THE TEAM EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ALREADY A PART OF THE TEAM FROM UNCANNY #392-393 AND XMEN #112-113 TO FIGHT MAGNETO IN THAT CRAPPY LOBDELL STORY

5) WARREN STARTS NAILING CANNONBALL'S HOT SISTER IN FRONT OF HER MOTHER

6) GERMANY WAS FULL OF CASTLES AND ANGRY TORCH-AND-PITCHFORK WEILDING VILLAGES IN TEH EARLY 1980'S - JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE!!!

7) ICEMAN IS NOW MADE OF PEE

THE BADS:

1) "DOMINANT SPECIES" WAS A CRAPPY STORY THAT MAKES NO SENSE (BUT IS SHOCKINGLY SIMILAR TO THE EVEN WORSE "WOLFVERINE EVOLUTION" STORY THAT CAME A FEW YEARS LATER)


2) "HOLY WAR" WAS THE SECOND WORST XMEN STORY EVER WITH A RIDICULOUS PLOT ABOUT CONVINCING THE WORLD THAT NIGHTCRAWLER WAS POPE SO THAT THEY COULD MAKE HIM INTO THE ANTICHRIST AND KILL PEOPLE WITH EVIL COMMUNION WAFERS SO THAT CATHOLICS WOULD THINK THE RAPTURE WAS UPON US EVEN THOUGH THE RAPTURE IS A STRICTLY PROTESTANT BELIEF

3) "THE DRACO" WAS THE WORST XMEN STORY EVER BECAUSE IT WAS FULL OF STUPID PLOT HOLES BECAUSE ANGEL IS APPARENTLY AN ACTUAL ANGEL AND NIGHTCRAWLER IS ACTUALLY A DEMON EVEN THOUGH THAT CONTRADICTS EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT HIM AND HIS FATHER TELEPORTS TO EARTH SO HE CAN CONCEIVE CHILDREN THROUGH EARTH WOMEN BECAUSE ALL OF HIS CHILDREN WILL BE TELEPORTERS WHO WILL HELP HIM OPEN A PORTAL SO THAT HE CAN GO TO EARTH...WAIT A MINUTE....

4) "SHE LIES WITH ANGELS" IS THE THIRD WORST XMEN STORY EVER BECAUSE SAM'S BROTHER USES WINGS AND MUTANT VOICE AND NO ONE NOTICES THAT HE IS MUTANT AND AUSTEN TRIES TO MAKE THIS AN ADAPTATION OF ROMEO AND JULIET WHICH WOULD BE STUPID TO BEGIN WITH BUT MORE SO BECAUSE UNLIKE IN SHAKESPEARE THE HUMANS ARE EVIL AND THE MUTANTS ARE GOOD BUT IN THE REAL PLAY THERE WAS AMBIGUITY BECAUSE BOTH FAMILIES WERE AT FAULT ALSO THER EWAS GOOD ART BY LAROCCA

5) XORN RETURNS BUT THAT WAS EDITORAILLY MANDATED

7) DEATH OF SQUIDBOY

[X-punged]

Why the hate?
Because it's so richly deserved. The story lines mentioned already are just window into the epic failure of his tenure. But, in addition, he managed to do the improbable. He made me completely break away from the completist attitude that I had with the X-men. Despite having an almost complete run of issues going back to Giant sized, with his work that need or impulse to continue was broken.
Through all the crappy eras, their was still enough love for all things X to give the next issue a try. But with Austen? Nope. I tore up an issue of the Draco story and tossed it in the garbage. And have by and large been severely unforgiving in subsequent writers with their subsequent episodes of suck. (The proper analogy would be a scar. The skin is healed, but it takes less trauma to that area to open up the old wound).
When your work is able to break a zombie-like trance, that is some damn impressive suckage.
Although I'll give him this much credit; it wasn't bad enough to forever swear off the title like OMD managed to do.
So there's that at least...

[darkthief]

Man, theres is a lot of hate here.

Ok, to get started, Paige wasnt a minor back in those issues, she was at least 21....so no adult/minor relationship there.

Now, its really hard to follow continuity in comics, specially with something as big as the xmen universe, thats no excuse for not doing your homework either but i see Kurt origin tale as a new "update" origin, like superman Birthright, Doctor strange: Strange (JMS) and so many others....and the thing with germany being depicted as a 1800 germany with castles, lynching mobs with torches and spears....well, dont get me wrong, Comic writers usually dont know ____ of the outside world, besides USA or their original country. When they make a story in lets say, Mexico, South America or East Europe, all we see is in Mexico a man with a big mustache and a mexican hat and a horse....dirt in the street, no buildings, etc, etc.....the same goes for south american countries....always some farm or a something like that....and in Europe when we see Quicksilver and Wanda hometown we see the same thing, a farm and people living in tents....SO DONT GO THERE, PLEASE.

On the other hand i agree with you with the DOMINANT SPECIES arc, it was way out of line...with that crap about mutants being not mutants but a different thing that i cant even recall what the hell it was....but i found interesting and original that thing with the Mutants cant get AIDS....why not? Also we have the comment about Iceman being made out of pee....hahaha came on guys, that was a really desperate time for Bobby, i bet you would have done the same thing if it were you. So, wolverine eating his own arm to survive is ok and "cool" because he is wolverine, but iceman doing some pee action is not? see how stupid that sound?

[battloid]

First of all, I will never understand Black Tom as a tree! Why? What's the deal?

Secondly, the Holy War arc was packaged to look like a really thought-provoking critique on faith in general and Christianity in particular. But really, imo, it's drivel with some Scripture thrown in to make it look . . . i don't know . . . artsy or something.

Honestly, X-Men from 2000 to 2009, as a whole has been a long and meandering roadmap from brilliance to the most inane stories told in its history.

[PUCK]

Man, theres is a lot of hate here.

Ok, to get started, Paige wasnt a minor back in those issues, she was at least 21....so no adult/minor relationship there.

Now, its really hard to follow continuity in comics, specially with something as big as the xmen universe, thats no excuse for not doing your homework either but i see Kurt origin tale as a new "update" origin, like superman Birthright, Doctor strange: Strange (JMS) and so many others....and the thing with germany being depicted as a 1800 germany with castles, lynching mobs with torches and spears....well, dont get me wrong, Comic writers usually dont know ____ of the outside world, besides USA or their original country. When they make a story in lets say, Mexico, South America or East Europe, all we see is in Mexico a man with a big mustache and a mexican hat and a horse....dirt in the street, no buildings, etc, etc.....the same goes for south american countries....always some farm or a something like that....and in Europe when we see Quicksilver and Wanda hometown we see the same thing, a farm and people living in tents....SO DONT GO THERE, PLEASE.

On the other hand i agree with you with the DOMINANT SPECIES arc, it was way out of line...with that crap about mutants being not mutants but a different thing that i cant even recall what the hell it was....but i found interesting and original that thing with the Mutants cant get AIDS....why not? Also we have the comment about Iceman being made out of pee....hahaha came on guys, that was a really desperate time for Bobby, i bet you would have done the same thing if it were you. So, wolverine eating his own arm to survive is ok and "cool" because he is wolverine, but iceman doing some pee action is not? see how stupid that sound?

A RESPONSE FOR YOU, MY DEAR FRIEND!!!!

1) PEE-MAN, AS YOU WILL OBSERVE, FALLS UNDER THE "GOOD" LIST

2) I AGREE THAT WOLVERINE IS INDEED MUCH MORE AWESOME THAN BOBBY AND I AGREE THAT INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU DESCRIBED, WOLVERINE SHOULD EAT BOBBY'S ARM AND THEN PEE ON CHUCK AUSTEN

3) THE PETERMILLIGAN IS WICKEDMADAWESOMETASTIC BUT HIS XMEN WAS KINDA SUCKED YOU SHOULD READ XFORCE/XSTATIX AND THEN ALLSOO THE "SHADE THE CHANGINGMAN" OF VERTIGO!!!

#4 - THE GERMANY COMMENTS WAS ALSO OF THE GOOD COLUMN!

5) YOU DO NOT ADDRESS THE MERITS OF THE STORIESLINE THAT SUCKED MANY A BALL BACK IN THE 2002-2004 ERA!!!.

[motteditor]

Ok, to get started, Paige wasnt a minor back in those issues, she was at least 21....so no adult/minor relationship there.

Now, its really hard to follow continuity in comics, specially with something as big as the xmen universe, thats no excuse for not doing your homework either but i see Kurt origin tale as a new "update" origin, like superman Birthright, Doctor strange: Strange (JMS) and so many others....

I think it's hard to believe Paige has already turned 21 when you compare her to a lot of other characters, specifically Sam.

But what I really wanted to talk about was Kurt. Just calling it an updated origin does a disservice to the sheer suck of that story.

First of all, the whole point of Kurt is that, despite his demonic visage, he's completely human. In many ways, he's the most determined of the X-Men to live the full gamut of human experiences, living each day to its fullest. He's the swashbuckler. By making him part-demon, it undermines the entire raison d'etre of the character.

And then, the mechanics of the story. Demon daddy wants to be able to get out of the limbo he's trapped in. His solution? Go to our dimension and have kids, so he'll be able to use them to free himself from his dimension? What? If he could get out to our dimension to have kids, why does he need to come to our dimension to have kids to free him from his dimension?

It's an epic fail of a storyline.

(As for Black Tom as a tree, wasn't that started in one of Fabian Nicieza's stories? I forget the details, but I don't think Austen can get all the blame for that one.)

[MarkParnell]

I think the problem with Paige and Warren is that she was drawn to look so young. I do think that the arc about child abuse was well executed and handled in a very poignant manner.

[MsPhoenyxx]

He brought Polaris back to the team just to make her a crazy person and ruin the established relationship with Havok.

[darkthief]

Ok, to get started, Paige wasnt a minor back in those issues, she was at least 21....so no adult/minor relationship there.

Now, its really hard to follow continuity in comics, specially with something as big as the xmen universe, thats no excuse for not doing your homework either but i see Kurt origin tale as a new "update" origin, like superman Birthright, Doctor strange: Strange (JMS) and so many others....

I think it's hard to believe Paige has already turned 21 when you compare her to a lot of other characters, specifically Sam.

But what I really wanted to talk about was Kurt. Just calling it an updated origin does a disservice to the sheer suck of that story.

First of all, the whole point of Kurt is that, despite his demonic visage, he's completely human. In many ways, he's the most determined of the X-Men to live the full gamut of human experiences, living each day to its fullest. He's the swashbuckler. By making him part-demon, it undermines the entire raison d'etre of the character.

And then, the mechanics of the story. Demon daddy wants to be able to get out of the limbo he's trapped in. His solution? Go to our dimension and have kids, so he'll be able to use them to free himself from his dimension? What? If he could get out to our dimension to have kids, why does he need to come to our dimension to have kids to free him from his dimension?

It's an epic fail of a storyline.

(As for Black Tom as a tree, wasn't that started in one of Fabian Nicieza's stories? I forget the details, but I don't think Austen can get all the blame for that one.)

Maybe he was just horny? haha and the thing with black tom is true. It wasnt Austen idea, it was a long time story....because if you see, Toms, powers are not just to channel energy using his stick, his power is to channel energy using all kind of wood or plant...(wikipedia never lies)

[darkthief]

About Peter milligan...i did read SHADE THE CHANGINGMAN that is why i couldnt belive what he did with the xmen.....his run started ok, i like it that whole golggota (or whaterverwashisname) making everyone mad or seeing illusions....specially liked the part when Remy is "fighting" Sinister. But then, that arc endend and we got "What Lorna Saw" (i still dont get what was he trying to do with that green creature from x force....) and finally we got The blood of Apocalypse....(i dont want to remember).

So for me, i enjoyed a lot more Austen run (yes, he had a lot of odd momments too) than Milligans run....
The thing is to try to get the positive from every writer run instead of giving him the tittle of : the worst xmen writer ever-

[Perephal]

About Peter milligan...i did read SHADE THE CHANGINGMAN that is why i couldnt belive what he did with the xmen.....his run started ok, i like it that whole golggota (or whaterverwashisname) making everyone mad or seeing illusions....specially liked the part when Remy is "fighting" Sinister. But then, that arc endend and we got "What Lorna Saw" (i still dont get what was he trying to do with that green creature from x force....) and finally we got The blood of Apocalypse....(i dont want to remember).

So for me, i enjoyed a lot more Austen run (yes, he had a lot of odd momments too) than Milligans run....
The thing is to try to get the positive from every writer run instead of giving him the tittle of : the worst xmen writer ever-

Internet sensationalism at it's finest. People probably don't complain that much about Milligan's X-men because they weren't reading it at the time. That was the book that also turned out some of Larocca's worst work I've ever seen. That sad thing is Austen's run has been easily ignored, but Millgan's tripe keeps popping up here or there.